Monday, August 28, 2006

Trial by Fire

Here's an interesting one for ye biblical scholars out there. Fox News reporters "convert" to Islam to secure their freedom. Assuming they were Christians, would a quick confession of lying and renouncement of Islam, once they got back on safe soil, re-assure their salvation?


  1. I guess if Peter can deny Christ and get away with it, then anyone can.

    I can't recall if it's documented in the scriptures, but I believe Peter paid a high personal price every morning he heard those chickens.

    But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. (Matt. 10:33)

    Jesus set a pretty straight-forward rule. I don't think I'm out of context. Jesus was talking to the twelve before he sent them out.

    When is our earthly existance more important than eternal life to the believer?

    sir don.....
    Knight of the Golden Horseshoe

  2. Excellent scripture, Sir Don, right to the point. But in reference to your first statement, what is your take? Can you confess this sin, and still be forgiven?

    Or, given the false intent of the "conversion", is it even a sin at all?

    Sir C

  3. I've never heard a compelling argument for degrees of sin.

    There can be debate on murder versus kill. Or, although we are under grace, should we still obey Leviticus law. And, Jesus did offer the key commandments.

    All sin is the same in God's righteous judgment. Can all be confessed and forgiven? Is denial a sin? I believe so to both.

    Refering back to my first post, it's not the forgiveness that's painful. Peter was forgiven, and he was the rock upon which the Church was built. It's the consequences of our choices.

    Maybe I can relate my thoughts this way. The more "educated" I become (in any area, especially biblical), the more humble I become in my ignorance.

    The older and more humble I get, the more I truly fear God. I would rather face a physical death than face our Father after a public denial. (Let me say I'm learning that I deny Him in a thousand small ways every day with my "dead works" and ignorant disobedience.)

    It's easy to sit my office chair and state I would die for my faith. But back in the days of the red menace, I put some thought into this topic. And it's always frightened me. Death or denial, and I've always told myself death is preferable.

    Forgiveness is not the issue for me. It's the consequences. Maybe you haven't lived in a rural with chickens. Roosters don't just crow once and stop. They can get carried away. I can't imagine Peter's pain every day of his remaining life of his denial. Obviously, it motivated him, but so would the point of a spear as tenderly.

    Always the pointy end of a dull spear.....
    sir don.....
    Knight of the Golden Horseshoe

  4. WAGES....SIN...!(DEATH)
    GIFT of GOD....ETERNAL LIFE...!!!


    ENJOY THE GIFT... and GRACES OF GOD THRU our King of Kings...
    (St. John 14:6)

    Sir Harry
    (King of King's Kid)

  5. Interesting that today on the radio (Glenn Beck show) they were discussing this very issue. Not too surprising that every caller I heard justified in some way the right to deny Christ, citing more or less that "God sees our heart, He would understand."

    If that is so, does that mean that 2000 years of Christian martyrs have died in vain? Or that He would understand if we take "the mark of the beast" under coercion?

    Sir C


  7. If that is so, does that mean that 2000 years of Christian martyrs have died in vain? Or that He would understand if we take "the mark of the beast" under coercion?

    Sir Chuck's point is well taken. For that matter you can say that about any sin. While I don't think all sins are equal, all can lead to damnation. I don't think there is much worry though. Someone who is really repenting would not think of repentance as sort of a way to "cheat on ones heavenly tax form".
    I would say it depends on the person. If he repented(really repented)he would be in the same position as Peter.
    I have no way of knowing and guessing verges on presumption-but I do think these people didn't know the gravity of what they were doing.
    I do think there are degrees of sin. To start, see Romans 1: 27-28,
    Then there is Luke 20: 46-47
    "Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
    which devour widows houses and for a shew make long prayer{the same shall recieve greater damnation}(extra marks inserted at the word the)."

    John 19:10-11
    Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest though not unto me? knowest though not that I have power to crucify thee, and to release thee
    Jesus answered, thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee {hath the greater sin}(emphasis from commentator).

    As to the original subject I would say that this situation is so compromising that none of us has a right to give more then a theoretical judgement. Yes, if they were Christians they should have remained so-and many did under far worse circumstances. We don't know if in fact they were Christians. If they were non-christians they were guilty of no more then lying as they did not know what they were doing. If they were nominal Christians then they scorned their birthright like Esau-but did not think about that(though they may later). If they were Christians, the shock of realizing they were sinners may ultimatly be good for them as it presumably was for Peter and for David. Neither of those went unpunished by the way-if you were Peter would you like to have it be remembered for thousands of years that you had been a coward at the most critical time of all? However both were forgiven, because both repented and the blood of Christ covers a multitude of sins. And the memory(and being reminded!)likly improved Peter by making him more humble-it improved the rest of us otherwise it wouldn't have been mentioned.
    In any case as I said we know that what they did was wrong. As to what we would do in the same place-we can only hope. Or perhaps hope the test is not demanded. And give glory for those who do confess Christ "even unto death".

    Sir Jason the Longwinded

  8. If they were non-christians they were guilty of no more then lying
    At the very least they falsely converted to Islam